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Soft or Hard n/w
10 June 2017 22:56 Post ID: #1538943
MamMOth
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Looks like we are heading for a soft Brexit which might be best all-in-all considering the situation in N.Ireland with the power-sharing going tits up.

Labour committed to leaving the single market and the European Economic Area by saying in their manifesto that Freedom of Movement must end. The Norway Option is therefore a non-starter. The other option is the European Free Trade Area which looks pretty good to me.

One thing everyone (except the Lib Dems) acknowledge is that we can't just take the 'good' bits of the EU and leave the bad. We can't pick and choose. If we want to curb immigration from the EU we have to leave the Single Market and the EEA.

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10 June 2017 23:59 Post ID: #1538945 - in reply to #1538943
Supreme MO
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The stupidity of where we are are now is two fold. We had control over non-EU migration but we still had parity between non-EU with EU. So governments could have turned off the taps for 50% of immigration.

There have always been a lot of controls over free movement and many EU members have been scratching their heads wondering why the UK Government hasn't applied them. You can send people home who haven't got jobs within 3 months etc. As long as the laws apply equally to UK citizens as they do to the EU you can engineer benefit laws etc. to suit you a la France.

There are ways to stay within the Single Market. It needs imagination not confrontation to achieve this Hopefully this election has diminished the power of the Mail etc. which encourages the childish posturing that seems to be expected from our leaders,
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10 June 2017 23:59 Post ID: #1538946 - in reply to #1538943
Sea MOnster
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My attitude to Brexit hasn't changed . I still want ourfyull Sovereignty back and the people to be subject to OUR courts oflaw , not Europe. May is a damaged PM but, the actual negotiations will be done by a professional team not her . The basic concept hasn't changed I still want out of the EU as the majority of us voted for last year. If the EU negotiators want to start playing silly buggers then our Team tells them in no uncertain terms that they are not negotiating with just our Prime Minister or the Conservative Party but Grreat Britain - we've stood on our own before and survived and we'll do it again.
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11 June 2017 00:10 Post ID: #1538947 - in reply to #1538943
Supreme MO
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Obes your naivety is almost touching. Our negotiating team is almost non-existent we are trying to recruit negotiators from just about anywhere on this planet. The morale of our team is rock bottom and they have been gagged to let it be known just how catastrophic our preparation for this is.
Davis is denying that there has been any assessment on what the cost of no deal would be. There are 2 schools of thought - neither should fill us full of confidence:
1) there hasn't been an assessment - this would mean the most reckless advancement of a process, or
2) There has been an assessment but they are too scared to publish it.

Good news is that some reality has set in post election and you will no longer hear vacuous rubbish like "no deal is better than a bad deal"

A humiliation on a scale greater than Suez may be averted.

Edited by leonmejico 11/6/2017 00:15
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11 June 2017 07:04 Post ID: #1538962 - in reply to #1538945
MamMOth
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leonmejico - 10/6/2017 23:59

The stupidity of where we are are now is two fold. We had control over non-EU migration but we still had parity between non-EU with EU. So governments could have turned off the taps for 50% of immigration.

There have always been a lot of controls over free movement and many EU members have been scratching their heads wondering why the UK Government hasn't applied them. You can send people home who haven't got jobs within 3 months etc. As long as the laws apply equally to UK citizens as they do to the EU you can engineer benefit laws etc. to suit you a la France.

There are ways to stay within the Single Market. It needs imagination not confrontation to achieve this Hopefully this election has diminished the power of the Mail etc. which encourages the childish posturing that seems to be expected from our leaders,


But you haven't considered the most detrimental effect of free movement. Wage depression. Corbyn has been campaigning about this for years. In addition, immigrants with jobs still need somewhere to live, their children need to go to school etc. This puts tremendous pressure on our services.
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11 June 2017 07:25 Post ID: #1538965 - in reply to #1538943
Legend MO
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We will get what we are given May knows this that's why she changed her tune about what she would get out of the deal the fact is we are leaving what are we going to say ok we won't leave then ha she thinks we are mugs & believes the crap she has been coming out with
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11 June 2017 08:30 Post ID: #1538969 - in reply to #1538962
Supreme MO
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tony_dolby - 11/6/2017 07:04

leonmejico - 10/6/2017 23:59

The stupidity of where we are are now is two fold. We had control over non-EU migration but we still had parity between non-EU with EU. So governments could have turned off the taps for 50% of immigration.

There have always been a lot of controls over free movement and many EU members have been scratching their heads wondering why the UK Government hasn't applied them. You can send people home who haven't got jobs within 3 months etc. As long as the laws apply equally to UK citizens as they do to the EU you can engineer benefit laws etc. to suit you a la France.

There are ways to stay within the Single Market. It needs imagination not confrontation to achieve this Hopefully this election has diminished the power of the Mail etc. which encourages the childish posturing that seems to be expected from our leaders,


But you haven't considered the most detrimental effect of free movement. Wage depression. Corbyn has been campaigning about this for years. In addition, immigrants with jobs still need somewhere to live, their children need to go to school etc. This puts tremendous pressure on our services.


Of all Remain people I was one of the few that was making the case that Free Movement dampens wages. At the very bottom I don't believe it has a massive bearing as much of this work falls into poverty trap wages where, when you factor in housing costs, UK nationals are just as well off on the dole. Construction is a possible issue and there is evidence that foreign gangs have been able to pay illegally low wages (this phenomena is centuries old).

The Labour party did make funds available for areas which received unusually high levels of immigration however I know that this isn't the solution people are looking for, a definite reduction is clearly what the referendum has shown us was voted for.

My belief is that there was more on the table as regards the 4 freedoms and Single Market membership. I also believe the likes of Macron will force massive changes to the EU.

1) in terms of negotiating power the EU hold all the cards and to crash out without a deal has never been an option - let's stop the idiocy. As a nation we have had 40 years bad press about the EU most of this has come about through internal squabbles within the Tory party. The PM has gone to Brussels to demand this etc. If we want a deal start acting like it.

2) There have always been controls to immigration which the government has not applied. Having big family groups of unemployables from Eastern Europe doesn't need to be tolerated. We need to know why we have failed in this way and what will be done about it.

3) We need the Government to come clean on their supposed target to reduce net migration to tens of thousands. It is clear that this promise was something May wished to push through when she was Home Secretary under Cameron - nobody else in cabinet thought it possible, or in some cases, desirable.

We still haven't been told why we still have non-EU migration at over 100,000 and we have control over this.

We also need the truth around the control of our borders rhetoric. I firmly believed that immigration was leave's trump card but it should have turned out to be their liability post referendum. I have continually made the case that Davis is more or less saying that low paid EU migration will continue for sectors such as agriculture, food processing etc. Tim Martin wants this continue to man his pubs. If this will be the case "controlling our borders" is empty rhetoric. One of the reasons why only UKIP have talked about an "Australian based point system" is because the points needed to pick turnips would grant entry to just about anyone.

In short the government has to tell us the truth on immigration post Brexit before we make any comparison to what it could like with Single Market membership.
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11 June 2017 08:44 Post ID: #1538975 - in reply to #1538943
MOnster
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At the moment I predict this, EU will get out of the UK but British politicians will spend the next twenty years slowly but surely chopping bits of any remaining EU off. Like vetoes but forever.

Remainers can have what the fuck they want inside of UK leaving the EU and visa versa, over the next two decades the Eu will be out out.

Edited by numbernine 11/6/2017 11:27
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11 June 2017 09:07 Post ID: #1538977 - in reply to #1538943
MOjo
20001000
I listens to some student yesterday saying the voted labour purly on the promise to scrap tuition fees. To be fair I would have done the same in their position, but the election is about a whole range of wider issues and knock on effects. They seem to think they have achieved some sort of young person anti austerity rebelion. On the plus side I wont be the one paying back the money labour will borrow, they will. What a bunch of suckers.

As for dropping the voting age to 16, I didnt give a toss about politics at 16 FFS. All that was important was poncing money from my parents, having a laugh with my mates and following Wall.

So at what age do you actually obtain that wider view?
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11 June 2017 09:46 Post ID: #1538983 - in reply to #1538977
MOhican
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HappyLion - 11/6/2017 09:07
So at what age do you actually obtain that wider view?


40-45
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11 June 2017 11:06 Post ID: #1538988 - in reply to #1538943
MOaner
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Stop messing about and just leave. No pay off and no taking orders from foreigners. Stop all immigration and start sending them back. As for trade, if we have something people want they will trade with us so bring back British industry and start making things people want.
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11 June 2017 11:25 Post ID: #1538992 - in reply to #1538943
MamMOth
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"I also believe the likes of Macron will force massive changes to the EU."

If the Heads of State can tame the Commission and put an end to their dream of a federal superstate then I would be quite happy with that. There are other, serious, problems with the EU that need addressing not least the flouting of rules on state aid etc. by some countries. We need to move back to a European Economic Community. This would require treaty-change though because we know that the EU's guarantees aren't worth anything.
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11 June 2017 11:30 Post ID: #1538994 - in reply to #1538943
MamMOth
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" Having big family groups of unemployables from Eastern Europe doesn't need to be tolerated."

I don't see this a problem. Unemployment among EU migrants is very low indeed. What they are doing is depressing wages and also causing the gap between wages and house affordability to widen. Young people now have next to no change of getting a mortgage in their early twenties.

I am not an economist, but building more homes is a necessity. However, do pro-EU people really want to concrete over the U.K. to fulfill the wishes of multi-national companies many of whom pay little tax in this country.

There must be a re-balancing of our economy. Immigration is good for the economy, and if we could have a 100 million people in the U.K. it would increase our GDP. The big questions surround social issues. Homes, schools, transport, health etc. Immigration isn't good for these at all.
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11 June 2017 11:31 Post ID: #1538995 - in reply to #1538943
MOnster
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We don't need to move back to an EEC anything, as we, the UK is out out.

It does not cost £3 billion to make the EEA work, so fuck them if that's the cost. And rules only apply to goods going into the EU which is normal, it does not apply to goods being sold in other markets once out of the EU. I don't know if that was ever the case, the main point is not to have British politics over shadowed by some cunt from Germany or France or a Bulgarian MP saying 'oh yes we can work with British Labour'
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11 June 2017 11:35 Post ID: #1538997 - in reply to #1538943
MOjo
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err don't forget that in September the Germans elect a new Government, at the moment Mrs Merkel isn't the nations favourite daughter, things may well change there, one political scandal, or a terrorist outrage with a government reaction that goes against the public mood and she could find herself out on her ear.
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11 June 2017 11:40 Post ID: #1538999 - in reply to #1538943
MOnster
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Ex eu minister or merkel, is there really a difference? european politics is a joke. is there any election that isn't being 'managed' by forces other than those that should be electing them?
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11 June 2017 11:45 Post ID: #1539002 - in reply to #1538994
MOaner
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tony_dolby - 11/6/2017 11:30

" Having big family groups of unemployables from Eastern Europe doesn't need to be tolerated."

I don't see this a problem. Unemployment among EU migrants is very low indeed. What they are doing is depressing wages and also causing the gap between wages and house affordability to widen. Young people now have next to no change of getting a mortgage in their early twenties.



On my last visit to London i was at Euston station in a coffee shop. I noticed none of the staff were English so i asked one of them how she can afford to live in London on the pittance she must earn. She told me she is from Poland, she shares a three bedroom house with eleven other people, all Polish. They all work in low paid jobs and pay the rent between them. This works out at £25 a week each. The landlord is from Bangladesh. This is one of the problems multiculturalism has caused. English people have no chance.
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