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Barnsley bigger club than Millwall?
03 October 2017 09:30 Post ID: #1556007
Legend MO
2000200050010025
So they say on their forum.

Now, I know this 'willy waving' stuff has never really interested most Millwall fans. We have always just considered ourselves as the knock-about neighbourhood club off the Old Kent Road. However, as a Historian these kinds of perspectives have interested me, as I like to know whether it's true or not. After a conversation on here once with Whisky I was inspired to go out and look at every single club that has ever played in the Football League and work-out what division they belonged in based on how many seasons they had played at that level compared to others.

However, you have to factor in the fact that the majority of southern clubs did not join the FL until 1920/21, as they were playing in the Southern League, which had rivalled the FL in terms of competition for a long time - as proved by Millwall's two runs to the FA Cup Semi-Finals and defeats of at the time northern giants like Preston NE, Everton and Aston Villa, as well as runs by Southampton and Tottenham's victory in 1901, the season after Millwall & Southampton had fought out a Semi-Final.

Therefore, the fairest reflection of relative status is to compare clubs from when the Fourth Division was introduced in 1958/59. As this also negates the tricky problem of comparing clubs that played in the Third Division (North) and Third Division (South). You could call the post 1958 period the 'modern football' era; especially as this is when the maximum wage was abolished etc. It throws up some (sic) interesting results...

The football clubs that have played the vast majority (over 80%) of that period in the top tier are Arsenal, Everton, Manchester United, Spurs, Liverpool, Chelsea (not as 'new' money as many believe), West Ham United, Aston Villa, Manchester City & Newcastle United.

The clubs that have spent the vast majority of that period in what is now the Championship are Cardiff City and Charlton Athletic. Bristol Rovers are League One through & through, with Rochdale the most League Two club out there.

As for Barnsley being 'bigger' than Millwall. Well, funny enough both clubs have spent exactly the same amount of seasons (31 seasons) in the Second Tier since the introduction of four tiers in 1958/59. Making both clubs predominantly second tier level clubs.

To split them in that period you could look at the following factors:

Millwall spent two seasons in the top flight, compared to Barnsley's one season.

Millwall's highest ever FL finish is 10th. Barnsley's is 19th.

Barnsley has played 10 seasons of bottom tier football; compared to Millwall's 5 seasons.

Millwall have reached two FA Cup Semi-Finals, one FA Cup Final and the UEFA Cup in that period; compared to Barnsley's one FA Cup Semi-Final appearance in that period.

The average attendance of both clubs is very similar in that time too:
Millwall: 9,860

Barnsley: 9,204

To be fair to Barnsley, they did win the FA Cup in 1912.

So, if you did a truly historical comparison (allowing southern clubs are at a disadvantage due to the Southern League), it would look like this (percentage is only fair way to do it):

Millwall:
Top Tier: 2.2% of FL history.
Second Tier: 45.5%
Third Tier: 47.7%
Fourth Tier: 5.5%

Barnsley:
Top Tier: 0.92% of FL history
Second Tier: 68.5%
Third Tier: 21.3%
Fourth Tier: 9.2%

*Remembering that Barnsley spent 22 consecutive seasons in a division that they could not get relegated from. Meanwhile, Millwall were winning the Southern League, which as mentioned was every bit as competitive as the FL.

Highest ever average attendance:

Millwall: 27,387* (1938-39)
*The Lions have averaged over 20,000 on eight occasions & close to on a further six.

Barnsley: 21,262* (1947-48)
*Only time Barnsley have averaged over 20,000 in a season.

Highest ever attendance:

Millwall: 48,672

Barnsley: 40,255

Away support (last full season together 2015/16):

Millwall: 851

Barnsley: 1,213

This in a season that Millwall did not play one derby game, compared to three for Barnsley. In a division where only four of our away fixtures were south of Birmingham. Factoring in that Millwall also have a members only and all-ticket away policy.

Also historically in Cups:

Millwall:
FA Cup record: FA Cup Runners-Up (2004), FA Cup Semi-Finalists (1900, 1903, 1937, 2004, 2013)

Barnsley:
FA Cup record: FA Cup Winners (1912), FA Cup Runners-Up (1910), Semi-Finalists (1910, 1912, 2008)

Millwall:
League Cup record: Quarter-Finals (1995, 1977, 1974)

Barnsley:
League Cup record: Quarter Finals (1982)

Millwall:
Football League Trophy record: Winners (1983), Runners-Up (1999)

Barnsley:
Football League Trophy record: Winners (2016)

Millwall:
UEFA Cup record: 1st Round (2004-05) v Ferencváros 1–1 (H), 3–1 (A)

----------------------------------------------------------

This is why (like a geek) I like looking at these things. I would say that Barnsley are in no way bigger or more successful than Millwall - despite how confident they are in that fact.

Barnsley fans, a lot of what is posted on this forum is tongue in cheek. You won't find many Millwall fans that think we have a divine right to beat anybody or think that you all live in houses with no running water. Try not to take life so seriously - especially not football! Furthermore, all our idiots at Wembley were condemned on here - you will not find a single decent Millwall fan or even old school Millwall hooligan who condones attacking innocent fans of any club.

Anyways, believe it or not, I do have a day job to do

Edited by Moody 3/10/2017 21:07
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03 October 2017 09:40 Post ID: #1556008 - in reply to #1556007
Legend MO
20002000100100100252525
I know its Tuesday moody but do you have to be so busy
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03 October 2017 09:52 Post ID: #1556011 - in reply to #1556007
Supreme MO
500020005002525
All just a little too charltonesqe
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03 October 2017 09:54 Post ID: #1556012 - in reply to #1556008
Supreme MO
500020001000100100100252525
unit4 - 3/10/2017 09:40

I know its Tuesday moody but do you have to be so busy :hihi:


Must admit, that's a massive tome.

How he inputs that amount of copy AND serves-up twenty Sausage & Egg McMuffins at the same time, I've no idea.



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03 October 2017 10:10 Post ID: #1556013 - in reply to #1556007
Supreme MO
50005001001001002525
I'm really struggling to care Moody, sorry.

No, I've failed....I really do not care. I have been to Barnsley. Enough said really.
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03 October 2017 10:42 Post ID: #1556016 - in reply to #1556007
Legend MO
200020001001001002525
Moody, that is a stupendous bit of research: the most riveting read I have encountered for a while. Don't be put off by the BP, who has been worn down and blunted by living in a society full of intellectuals and existentialists.

Yes, I have always regarded as Barnsley and Millwall on a very equal footing, as you know.

The piece of research time simply hasn't allowed me to conduct has been FA Cup results between Southern League clubs and Football League Div 2 from 1894-1919. I suspect the Southern League would win that. Though the Southern League would, in the same period, come off the worse against Division 1 sides in the FA Cup.

I think Div 3 (south) v Div 2 would start of with little to chose in the first four or five years, but over time third tier victories would become rarer as the Div 2 clubs became bigger and more powerful.

Ditto Div 3 (south) v Div 3 (north) from 1921-1958. Again, I think the south would be handsome winners. The Div 3 South clubs were promoted as Champions, they tended to stick around Div 2 for a bit. Div 3 North clubs had a tendency to come straight back down, or struggle for a season or two until they did.

Barnsley, as it happens, tended to be rare Div 3 North Champions with stickability.



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03 October 2017 10:46 Post ID: #1556018 - in reply to #1556016
Supreme MO
500020001000100100100252525
whiskylion - 3/10/2017 10:42

Moody, that is a stupendous bit of research: the most riveting read I have encountered for a while. Don't be put off by the BP, who has been worn down and blunted by living in a society full of intellectuals and existentialists.

Yes, I have always regarded as Barnsley and Millwall on a very equal footing, as you know.

The piece of research time simply hasn't allowed me to conduct has been FA Cup results between Southern League clubs and Football League Div 2 from 1894-1919. I suspect the Southern League would win that. Though the Southern League would, in the same period, come off the worse against Division 1 sides in the FA Cup.

I think Div 3 (south) v Div 2 would start of with little to chose in the first four or five years, but over time third tier victories would become rarer as the Div 2 clubs became bigger and more powerful.

Ditto Div 3 (south) v Div 3 (north) from 1921-1958. Again, I think the south would be handsome winners. The Div 3 South clubs were promoted as Champions, they tended to stick around Div 2 for a bit. Div 3 North clubs had a tendency to come straight back down, or struggle for a season or two until they did.

Barnsley, as it happens, tended to be rare Div 3 North Champions with stickability.





Can someone order me a cab to The Valley.

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03 October 2017 10:49 Post ID: #1556020 - in reply to #1556018
Legend MO
200020001001001002525
ParisWall - 3/10/2017 10:46

whiskylion - 3/10/2017 10:42

Moody, that is a stupendous bit of research: the most riveting read I have encountered for a while. Don't be put off by the BP, who has been worn down and blunted by living in a society full of intellectuals and existentialists.

Yes, I have always regarded as Barnsley and Millwall on a very equal footing, as you know.

The piece of research time simply hasn't allowed me to conduct has been FA Cup results between Southern League clubs and Football League Div 2 from 1894-1919. I suspect the Southern League would win that. Though the Southern League would, in the same period, come off the worse against Division 1 sides in the FA Cup.

I think Div 3 (south) v Div 2 would start of with little to chose in the first four or five years, but over time third tier victories would become rarer as the Div 2 clubs became bigger and more powerful.

Ditto Div 3 (south) v Div 3 (north) from 1921-1958. Again, I think the south would be handsome winners. The Div 3 South clubs were promoted as Champions, they tended to stick around Div 2 for a bit. Div 3 North clubs had a tendency to come straight back down, or struggle for a season or two until they did.

Barnsley, as it happens, tended to be rare Div 3 North Champions with stickability.





Can someone order me a cab to The Valley.

:crackingup:



Can't order you a cab. But I can give you the times of the trains, if you like...


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03 October 2017 10:53 Post ID: #1556021 - in reply to #1556020
Supreme MO
500020001000100100100252525
whiskylion - 3/10/2017 10:49

ParisWall - 3/10/2017 10:46

whiskylion - 3/10/2017 10:42

Moody, that is a stupendous bit of research: the most riveting read I have encountered for a while. Don't be put off by the BP, who has been worn down and blunted by living in a society full of intellectuals and existentialists.

Yes, I have always regarded as Barnsley and Millwall on a very equal footing, as you know.

The piece of research time simply hasn't allowed me to conduct has been FA Cup results between Southern League clubs and Football League Div 2 from 1894-1919. I suspect the Southern League would win that. Though the Southern League would, in the same period, come off the worse against Division 1 sides in the FA Cup.

I think Div 3 (south) v Div 2 would start of with little to chose in the first four or five years, but over time third tier victories would become rarer as the Div 2 clubs became bigger and more powerful.

Ditto Div 3 (south) v Div 3 (north) from 1921-1958. Again, I think the south would be handsome winners. The Div 3 South clubs were promoted as Champions, they tended to stick around Div 2 for a bit. Div 3 North clubs had a tendency to come straight back down, or struggle for a season or two until they did.

Barnsley, as it happens, tended to be rare Div 3 North Champions with stickability.





Can someone order me a cab to The Valley.

:crackingup:



Can't order you a cab. But I can give you the times of the trains, if you like...




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03 October 2017 11:12 Post ID: #1556027 - in reply to #1556007
Legend MO
2000200050010025
I'm a born geek - what can I say.

I can also give them some tips on what to do in Bermondsey & Southwark next time they are down - as once again they've let their ignorance get the better of them by saying it's an uninteresting & crap part of London

Millwall, along with Chelsea & Arsenal, are a central London club. It's impossible to say the area is boring! They should check the Time Out guide for their next visit:

https://www.timeout.com/london/things-to-do/bermondsey-area-guide
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03 October 2017 11:13 Post ID: #1556028 - in reply to #1556007
MOaner
50005000100
I've slept through this entire thread.

Most theraputic
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03 October 2017 11:21 Post ID: #1556029 - in reply to #1556028
Legend MO
2000200050010025
Old_Lion_Les - 3/10/2017 11:13

I've slept through this entire thread.

Most theraputic


To be fair Les, that's probably more down to age. Anyone who is tired of data, is tired of life
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03 October 2017 11:23 Post ID: #1556030 - in reply to #1556007
GeroniMO
1000500100100100100
While I take my flat cap off to Moony and Whisker for the info, I really have nobody to share it with.
And after all, sharing is caring.

Both my boys are solid Lions fans, BUT they will almost certainly tell me to fuck off and get a life if I try and recite any of this. So best kept a secret.

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03 October 2017 11:24 Post ID: #1556031 - in reply to #1556007
Supreme MO
500010005002525
Some good facts and stats there Moody and i would agree we are pretty much the same as Barnsley, only difference we are Londoners and they are Kestrel-killing wippet molesters and also we are hated Nationwide where as only local Yorkshire sides dislike them, i've only met one person who has Barnsley as his most hated team and that was a Bradford supporter who had taken a slap from them one year.
So on that basis Millwall are more mainstream than Barnsley.
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03 October 2017 11:28 Post ID: #1556033 - in reply to #1556030
Supreme MO
500020001000100100100252525
Kryan Bing - 3/10/2017 11:23

While I take my flat cap off to Moony and Whisker for the info, I really have nobody to share it with.
And after all, sharing is caring.

Both my boys are solid Lions fans, BUT they will almost certainly tell me to fuck off and get a life if I try and recite any of this. So best kept a secret.

:grin:


Yes, mate, the younger generation just don't want to know.

Do youngster's still collect Match-day Programmes?

Doubt it.



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03 October 2017 11:36 Post ID: #1556034 - in reply to #1556033
GeroniMO
1000500100100100100
ParisWall - 3/10/2017 11:28
Yes, mate, the younger generation just don't want to know.

Do youngster's still collect Match-day Programmes?

Doubt it.

:sadno:


No, not interested in all my old match day programmes, or my dear old dads for that matter.
Although, for a while, they were curious if I had eaten any babies.
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03 October 2017 11:46 Post ID: #1556036 - in reply to #1556034
Supreme MO
500020001000100100100252525
Kryan Bing - 3/10/2017 11:36

ParisWall - 3/10/2017 11:28
Yes, mate, the younger generation just don't want to know.

Do youngster's still collect Match-day Programmes?

Doubt it.

:sadno:


No, not interested in all my old match day programmes, or my dear old dads for that matter.
Although, for a while, they were curious if I had eaten any babies.


I can believe that mate.

Perhaps it reflects the disposable society we now live in.

When I was a kid I collected Programmes, Stamps, Beer Labels, 7" Records and Charles Buchan's Football Monthly Magazines.

Now it's just my Pensions.


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