Millwall Forum - Sky think we were founded by jam and marmalade makers, rather tinsmiths-altho Mortons did make some!
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Sky think we were founded by jam and marmalade makers, rather tinsmiths-altho Mortons did make some!
21 October 2017 21:26 Post ID: #1558244
Legend MO
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Like the 'Millwall dock workers broke the strike' nonsense, this is another myth that we are never going to be rid of.

Jam and marmalade makers in the middle of the East End??!

How did tin smiths who made cans that sometimes contained jam or marmalade become jam and marmalade makers?

Oh well.

Edited by Moody 24/10/2017 09:42
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21 October 2017 22:41 Post ID: #1558247 - in reply to #1558244
Supreme MO
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Admin we need to Preserve this thread
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21 October 2017 22:53 Post ID: #1558248 - in reply to #1558244
Supreme MO
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This is bound to get Whisky hot under the collar!
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21 October 2017 23:49 Post ID: #1558250 - in reply to #1558244
Danger MOuse
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The most ridiculous idea about the founding of Millwall is there is such a thing as a Jam Factory! Apart from Jam making being highly seasonal work, the idea that Tin Smiths would be required if the only product was Jam is silly. Jam came in Ceramic pots and was usually made by women workers in the plant. Jam would be a small sideline of the Morton enterprise Not my own words
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22 October 2017 00:24 Post ID: #1558251 - in reply to #1558244
MOnster
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Imagine having written (a term which is probably a stretch) about Millwall properly for at least five years, I can count on no hands the amount of times I wrote 'Millwall are jammy buggers' or 'McGhee blows a raspberry', not even 'Paphitis gets new stockmarket seed money.' The amount of references to our founders would have been scattered all over the place. No, it's Lions this, maul that, roar here, not 'you'll be lucky to get out of the Den on a Friday night having won 2-0, as the walk back to the station is like trying to run through lemon curd."

Then again 'Holloway canned', 'Birmingham opened like a tin of beans' (pull back clasp not tin opener ha), Millwall Mort-on-ified were hardly used either. Although it is quite a shame, as you can quite imagine Millwall's flag would have a jolly black fellow all affro'd up from Robinsons on it. Fucking hell, that would go down well. Who will fly one for the next game? Motto "We're Jammin' (Jammin) where 'ere we go!"

Edited by numbernine 22/10/2017 00:25
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22 October 2017 00:51 Post ID: #1558252 - in reply to #1558244
Big MO
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I suppose the golly wog was down to us as well
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22 October 2017 01:12 Post ID: #1558253 - in reply to #1558252
Sir MO
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45skiprats - 22/10/2017 00:51

I suppose the golly wog was down to us as well


It will be now you mentioned it 45Skip,tomorrows papers, Quote from Millwall online
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22 October 2017 03:36 Post ID: #1558255 - in reply to #1558244
GeroniMO
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Moody - 21/10/2017 21:26

Like the 'Millwall dock workers broke the strike' nonsense, this is another myth that we are never going to be rid of.

Jam and marmalade makers in the middle of the East End??!

How did tin smiths who made cans that sometimes contained jam or marmalade become jam and marmalade makers?

Oh well.


Do you know the Origin of Millwall football club?
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22 October 2017 09:03 Post ID: #1558265 - in reply to #1558255
Legend MO
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mfcjohn - 22/10/2017 03:36

Moody - 21/10/2017 21:26

Like the 'Millwall dock workers broke the strike' nonsense, this is another myth that we are never going to be rid of.

Jam and marmalade makers in the middle of the East End??!

How did tin smiths who made cans that sometimes contained jam or marmalade become jam and marmalade makers?

Oh well.


Do you know the Origin of Millwall football club?


Yes - I clearly mentioned it in my original post. Sky clearly don't, however.
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22 October 2017 09:11 Post ID: #1558268 - in reply to #1558244
Supreme MO
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My two granddads worked in Jam factories, one on the isle of dogs and the other at Ratcliffe Cross close to Free Trade Wharf in the Highway.
The one that worked on the Isle of Dogs also shovelled coal from the barges so I do not know if they intermixed in seasons of work.
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22 October 2017 09:13 Post ID: #1558269 - in reply to #1558248
Legend MO
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onlyagame - 21/10/2017 22:53

This is bound to get Whisky hot under the collar!



This story has been spread for a long time...
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22 October 2017 09:27 Post ID: #1558270 - in reply to #1558268
Legend MO
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lionheart488 - 22/10/2017 09:11

My two granddads worked in Jam factories, one on the isle of dogs and the other at Ratcliffe Cross close to Free Trade Wharf in the Highway.
The one that worked on the Isle of Dogs also shovelled coal from the barges so I do not know if they intermixed in seasons of work.


I think this is where the story gets mixed up.

Surely they worked in factories where where jam was a product put into cans / pots to be shipped off. In that they were not out picking strawberries in the sun drenched fields of the East End and then turning them into jam.

Anyways, the men that decided to set up Millwall Rovers were said to be tin-smiths who worked at Morton's. Not jam and marmalade 'makers'.
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22 October 2017 10:10 Post ID: #1558277 - in reply to #1558270
Legend MO
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Making jam on the Isle of Dogs was quite an easy thing to do.

For a start, Morton's had huge refrigeration capacity. They had easy access to the "garden of England", Kent (even the area which now covers the new and old Dens was a market garden for most of the 19th century). They had bountiful supplies of sugar. An they had no shortage of a cheap labour force. As for marmalade: the oranges would be shipped in from Spain, land at Millwall docks, find their way to Morton's within the hour and immediately into the refrigeration unit.

So yes, the work was seasonal. But that season was a lot longer than you might think and their combined annual preserve output far greater than might be presumed.

There is no doubt that some specialist workers would have gravitated south from Scotland looking for work there...and finding it. Especially tin smiths.

This movement to London of skilled workers can be found in my own family's history. My father's mother's family came from Wales. They had worked at the Royal Navy dockyard of Pembroke Dock and in Neath as land-based ship's carpenters. And finally, at the tail end of the 19th century, ended up working at the Naval Dockyards of Deptford (coincidently where the rum was blended - I am a rum as well as whisky blender).

Somewhere I have a magazine article from the 1930s where someone who was around almost from the start tells the club's history. Not sure if I can get to it today. I'll let you know if I do.


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22 October 2017 10:46 Post ID: #1558280 - in reply to #1558244
Legend MO
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But were Millwall Rovers founded by the tin-smiths that worked for Morton's or by people that made jam and marmalade (whom I assume were mostly women?)

Because this always the debate that comes up. From your book Whisky I took it that Millwall Rovers were founded by some locals who just happened to work at Morton's, mostly tin-smiths. In that the club wasn't a work team founded by Morton's - which would make more sense of this 'founded by jam and marmalade makers', but were we're a stand alone club.

Therefore if Sky ever bothered to be accurate, they would have said 'Millwall, founded by locals just across the river on the Isle of Dogs, mostly tin-smiths working at Morton's cannery factory'... Jam and marmalade workers just doesn't sound right or give it it's true context.

Edited by Moody 22/10/2017 10:48
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22 October 2017 11:08 Post ID: #1558281 - in reply to #1558244
Legend MO
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Nothing I have found in my research over the last 30 years changes the early history as set out in Lions of the South.

However, my understanding of the Morton's operation is far better now than then. And they certainly did make a lot of jam and marmalade!!!

And, indeed, it was women who were employed in great numbers in the jam-making enterprise - not least because of their large available numbers and also cheaper pay.

But young men would have worked as tin smiths and in the offices as clerks of one sort or another.

Had Morton's not existed, would these souls have got together and formed Millwall Rovers? Probably not.

Will journalists and broadcasters ever go into detail to explain the intricacies of 19th century social and working practices when talking about Millwall, especially just prior to a live football match? Probably not.


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22 October 2017 11:26 Post ID: #1558289 - in reply to #1558281
Legend MO
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whiskylion - 22/10/2017 11:08

Will journalists and broadcasters ever go into detail to explain the intricacies of 19th century social and working practices when talking about Millwall, especially just prior to a live football match? Probably not.




Haha. I do expect quite a lot - before I started working with children coping with cancer and other medical conditions I worked in mainstream schools for a bit - to say I expected quite a lot from the students is an understatement, I think I only gave one student an A* in my whole time in mainstream. I'm a bit easier on my current lot

So, yes, not likely Sky's researches will ever satisfy me - after all, they had us down as losing 4-0 to Manchester United in the FA Cup final for quite some time!

Good info there tho - you are right re more stuff coming to light re Mortons, found an interesting (for people like us) site just now. How you researched Lions of the South without the internet (not wiki, but easy to access public records etc) I will never know!! Labour of love!
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22 October 2017 11:27 Post ID: #1558290 - in reply to #1558244
MOnster
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Funny though.

Two old ladies, both 57, Mavis and Sally made jam during the week, but at the weekend went disguised in sugar bag masks, and bashed up Thames Ironworks supporters with rolling pins on a match day.
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